@chris mcdonnell: You made this point before but we didn’t get a proper debate going. I 100% disagree with you on this. 3 reasons for a start off 1. Underage teams have lots of different shapes & sizes 2. Coaching standards vary considerably from club to club & 3. You will not always have a branch appointed referee. Every single reason relates to safety which has to be prioritised over the future development of 1 professional prop out of those 100s of kids rocking up on a weekend.

@Paul Ennis: i understand your concerns about safety and some clubs/teams just don’t have those type of players. That’s fair enough.
Coaching standards is not an excuse, clubs and the branch should be responsible for coaching, especially the scrum.
The affiliate ref situation is a worry so in that case maybe revert to current rules.
But at schools cup level and regional selection ( say in leinster the shane horgan cup under 16s ) these lads should be allowed scrumage. Otherwise it’s backrows in at prop and they just don’t turn into real props.

@chris mcdonnell: we just need heavier men, technique can only take them so far…

@Paul Ennis: Was there any data on the numbers of serious injuries from scrummaging in school age rugby?

@Tom Murphy: my point is the heavier kids don’t get selected as there is no advantage for a coach to pick them when they can select a much more mobile lighter player becuase there no real benifit In scrum. .

@Tom Murphy: the thing is though, we definitely have heavier men here in Ireland. If there’s one thing that genetically shouldn’t be a massive problem is some lad that’s 5ft11-6ft2 and has a load of timber lashed on. It’s not like locks where minster lads like that are thin in the ground. Everyone knows a lad the size and shape of Furlong and played Junior B football with them. It’s about getting them into the sport

@Conor Quinn: I have tried posting a reply, but the 42 finds it offensive!! I cannot figure out why

@Paul Ennis: I will try again though. I have only witnessed one injury in 15 years of coaching and refereeing, and that was a 12 year old. I won’t go into the details in case that is what was found to be offensive. I believe there are 3 main reasons for a dominant scrum at youths 1. They are bigger 2. Technically better 3. They are illegal. In my experience, number 3 is the most common reason. Referees are vital to manage the safety of a scrum and at U13 to certainly U15 there is an element of coaching the players. Once you cut out the illegal stuff giving one team dominance, the 1.5m push becomes irrelevant.

@chris mcdonnell: The U19 law variations apply (including the 1.5m push)… are there for safety and apply to many adult games too (J3 and below). That aside, most referees who cover Shane Horgan are C panel referees and would rarely cover J2 games, Senior Cup will absolutely be B panel referees with ARs but the vast majority of schools games will be referees from across the spectrum. They are midweek games and referees have full time jobs or businesses to run. It is not possible to ensure the quality of referee to manage the laws without U19 variations for kids. And even if you decided to disregard the U19 laws for the senior cup, for 50% of the senior schools this will be for 1 game out of a 15 game season. That would be a nightmare.

@chris mcdonnell: Your reply to Tom is relevant, but I will counter that. A technically superior prop will beat a heavy prop 9 times out of 10. In addition, the heavier prop is not learning anything if he is just allowed to use his size and weight to over power his opposite number. Granted the 1.5m push doesn’t solve this problem either, but it does teach him control.

@Paul Ennis: great discussion Paul and Chris. Nice to read people that know what they’re talking about.